No toe-in and centre fins !!!! OMG no wonder it has no drive

[Witchcraft]

I mean the opposite, that people that don't buy your board may also do that for a reason. And it's btw a very well known psychological fact that after buying something expensive you become much more prone to praising it, regardless of what you "actually" think about it. Personally, I value feedback from people that tried my boards and didn't buy much more. It is generally both more trustworthy and also, if it involves negative critique, more interesting. Unfortunately, it is just so hard to come by...

I think that happens far less than just good genuine feedback. Maybe I get more people who are looking beyond marketing. Normally if someone gives more details it´s quite easy to figure out what is BS and what isn´t. You also have to take into account how long someone has sailed a board.

Fx. One message on Facebook from today from a belgium sailor I do not know apart from ordering some foot straps and a video he posted. I do not know where he got the board from nor what he paid.

Translated from dutch:

Hey Bouke, thanks for the foot straps!
Friday finally sailed again, after 3 months of calmness here.
unfortunately with my Tabou Da Curve TwinFin, after 3 weeks Cape Town with a Witchcraft v3.0 I had to get used to the Tabou
I basically liked it no longer haha, no resistance in the jibe, not enough grip in the cutback, no security ...
Only compliments to the Witchcraft and you therefore.

The video: http://vimeo.com/58682285#

Genuine or not?

Off course negative feedback is even more important. That is why I changed the rail shape in 2009. Those who found the trick how to use it did like it but many did have problems. Since then feedback has been really good. There is always people who do not like something for what ever reason, some valid, some completely stupid. It does not matter, can´t cater for all the Bashers in the world anyway.

[Ola H.]

It's not much use debating individual pieces of feedback. My point was just that saying "everybody tells me tri fins are the best so they must be" is not a very strong argument. But lets agree to disagree on if there is really one "best fin system for all" or not.

[Witchcraft]

It's not much use debating individual pieces of feedback. My point was just that saying "everybody tells me tri fins are the best so they must be" is not a very strong argument.

That depends if this feedback was just limited to that or if there is more substantial feedback behind it over a longer period. It is not possible to repeat by word what people are saying.

But lets agree to disagree on if there is really one "best fin system for all" or not.

Time will tell as refinement goes on......The otto engine needed 100 years to get to the current level of perfection.

[chrispavlo]

Originally Posted by chrispavlo

in this case i see it a little different: a good toe-in is the allignment of the angle of the fin to the direction
of the waterstream (outwards, close to the rails) plus a slight positive angle-of-attack -
the same like a sail that is sheeted-in.

No, it´s like what Ola wrote and me some time ago because we found this out by CFD. An asymmetrical foil has a big influence on AoA, lift and drag.

hi bouke, wasn't online for a while due both intensive working and skiing - just read your comments:
could it be that we're just using different words for the same?
of course i know about the influence of different asym foils on AoA - tested almost all possible combinations back in 2009.
my definition of AoA was that Zero is when the fin is neutral in the waterstream (=no force in any direction, apart from drag)
for sym foils that would mean a smaller toe-in compared to asym foils that need more toe-in to be neutral.
with "slight positive angle-of-attack" i meant to give the fin a little bit less toe-in from the neutral position
"the same like a sail that is sheeted-in" - this creates drive without feeling draggy like an oversheeted sail (=not enough toe-in)

Originally Posted by chrispavlo

a fin with a wide range of angle-of-attack would then allow greater deviations in both directions
from this ideal angle - a more rounded leading edge of the fin helps in this case.
otherwise the fin would cavitate and therefore 'stall' in abrupt/radical changes of direction.

When a fin can handle bigger AoA´s, it does not mean they are less sensitive to the toe-in angle. They will still cause more drag if put wrong.

of course, but it will be less prone to 'stall' or 'spin-out' when one puts his waveboard into radical positions
again, i think we're just using different words for the same

[Witchcraft]

my definition of AoA was that Zero is when the fin is neutral in the waterstream (=no force in any direction, apart from drag)
for sym foils that would mean a smaller toe-in compared to asym foils that need more toe-in to be neutral.
with "slight positive angle-of-attack" i meant to give the fin a little bit less toe-in from the neutral position
"the same like a sail that is sheeted-in" - this creates drive without feeling draggy like an oversheeted sail (=not enough toe-in)

Yes but remember that an asy foil with added toe in is still only neutral so it does not give a forwardly pointed lift (like a sail does). IMO the main advantage of an asy foil is to get more lift in one direction so more grip from the inner fin.

of course, but it will be less prone to 'stall' or 'spin-out' when one puts his waveboard into radical positions
again, i think we're just using different words for the same

No, I was talking about the drag when running neutral, not the stall point. Even when our new profile can handle a higher AoA before stalling, to find the point of least drag when running neutral is just the same. But there is less drag at higher AoA´s. We did not developed this profile ourselves, we just looked in databases of foils which foil gave the best characteristics for wave sailing.

[chrispavlo]

Yes but remember that an asy foil with added toe in is still only neutral so it does not give a forwardly pointed lift (like a sail does). IMO the main advantage of an asy foil is to get more lift in one direction so more grip from the inner fin.

thought I mentioned the same in different words:
"with "slight positive angle-of-attack" i meant to give the fin a little bit less toe-in from the neutral position
"the same like a sail that is sheeted-in" - this creates drive.."

No, I was talking about the drag when running neutral, not the stall point. Even when our new profile can handle a higher AoA before stalling, to find the point of least drag when running neutral is just the same. But there is less drag at higher AoA´s. We did not developed this profile ourselves, we just looked in databases of foils which foil gave the best characteristics for wave sailing.

fully agree, think we're talking about the same!